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Contra Stavrinides
by Frank Nelte
PART XI: GOD AND "TIME"
One argument Kyriacos Stavrinides repeats "time" and again in his 26 hours "on camera" is that:
God is not in TIME and space.
In PART V (page 14) we looked at the question of "space". Now let's examine this claim that "God is not in TIME".
On tape #4 Dr. Stavrinides said the following:
"Was there a 'TIME' before creation? The word 'BEFORE' is meaningless BECAUSE 'TIME' is the measurement of change."
"If there is NO CHANGE, THEN there is NO TIME!"
"God has NO NEED of a future."
"With God there is NO GAIN and there is NO LOSS!"
"God does NOT NEED senses or tools to work."
"If you are in doubt about the Hebrew (i.e. the meaning of any Old Testament word), YOU ARE SAFE to take it as A FIGURE OF SPEECH!"
"We have a problem because we STILL NEED TO SAY, 'GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING'... (since) we've PROVED that."
"There is NO FUTURE for God." (tape #5)
(Regarding God learning things from man's actions) "God has attributes which transcend time and space ... (and so) the answer is: THAT IS NOT A QUESTION!" (TAPE #5)
As can be seen from the above quotations, Dr. Stavrinides does his best to drum this concept into his audience. But it is not right. Let's examine it carefully.
THIS PREMISE IS FALSE!
Not one shred of proof is presented to support this claim. He expects us to simply accept his authoritative statement.
His premise ASSUMES that there could not have been any time before God began creation. This assumption is nonsense.
Before God created this universe; before He created the angels and the other spirit beings, there were only two Beings ... the ones we today know as God the Father and Jesus Christ.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (IJohn 1:5)
Both of these Beings were existing in incredibly brilliant light, which constantly emanates from both of them. There has never been a moment, a time or an occasion when there was darkness in the presence of God. That is also true for the time before God created anything or anyone.
What do you mean ... "CHANGE"? Must it be change that is observable on the HUMAN LEVEL? What about change that we human beings cannot observe, or even measure?
How quick must that change take place, to qualify for the existence of time? Does that change have to take place within ...
Who decides how long is needed to determine: yes, change has taken place; therefore time exists!? To say, as Dr. Stavrinides frequently did:
"THAT IS NOT A QUESTION!"
... is clearly a cop-out and not acceptable. That is nothing more than an attempt to brow-beat people into academic submission.
What PROOF is there that when no change occurs, then there is also no time? No proof at all is offered for this claim. Who has the right to define time when we are talking in the context of GOD'S existence? WHY, in the context of God's existence, should time be dependent on change? Questions like these show that Dr. Stavrinides' premises are unsupported.
God is a thinking Being. So is Jesus Christ. They have NEW THOUGHTS all the time! Dr. Stavrinides is trying to relegate God to a boring, monotonous existence, in which nothing ever changes ... or at least not until God started to create the angels and the universe. That is an insult to the intelligence of God.
Every new thought you have is a change! It wasn't there before ... and it will be succeeded by other new thoughts that you have not yet had. That is CHANGE! And such change has ALWAYS existed with God. Therefore TIME has always existed with God!
For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)
Did God make this statement so that some philosopher can come along and say: that statement "... carries that specific list (of items on a list) --- and it does so by virtue of what it says", as Dr. Stavrinides does in handout #17 in reference to Colossians 1:16? And is there really "no room for the notion" of new thoughts in that IMPLICIT list?
God told Hezekiah that he would die.
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. (IIKings 20:1)
Then, after Hezekiah prayed fervently, God changed His mind.
Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. (IIKings 20:5)
Similarly, God told Moses that He would destroy Israel.
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. (Exodus 32:10)
Then, after Moses had interceded, God changed His mind.
And the LORD repented (changed His mind) of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. (Exodus 32:14)
Earlier, in the days of Noah, God changed in His feelings towards mankind... man's perverse behaviour grieved God.
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Genesis 6:6)
WHAT DO YOU MEAN ... GOD DOESN'T CHANGE??
The statement can refer to any ONE of the above things without necessarily referring to the other items at all. Seldom would we really mean that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, IN ANY RESPECT has changed!
God's statement in Mal. 3:6 is not intended as an absolute state-ment that is to regulate every single facet of God's eternal existence ... but that is precisely the kind of "implicit list" that carnal philosophers "deduce".
And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:5)
Israel has grievously disobeyed God and deserves to be punished by God. They really DESERVE to be "consumed". In this context God says:
For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)
WHY does God make the statement: "Because I am the Eternal, I don't change"? What is this statement supposed to achieve?
The answer is that God made this statement to provide a premise from which to draw a LOGICAL deduction! The word "THEREFORE" introduces a conclusion or a deduction, right? Right!
And to make sure they reach the same conclusion as God WANTS them to reach... God spells out that conclusion (or deduction) for them. It is:
"THEREFORE YOU SONS OF JACOB ARE NOT CONSUMED!"
God is saying: "Yes, I know that by rights I SHOULD consume you for all your sins, but the punishments that I will bring upon you will not go to that extreme, even though it would be deserved."
God did not really make this statement in Mal. 3:6 so that we or a "theologian" or a philosopher or anyone else would be able to make a list of 25 other "implicit" deductions from this statement. That's not what God wanted to communicate in this verse!
"MY CHARACTER does not change. I have made certain promises to your forefathers and even though you have greatly provoked Me (see previous verse, verse 5), I will still fulfill those promises and THEREFORE I will not consume you."
And he CHANGED his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard. (ISamuel 21:13)
Here this word "change" has to do with conduct and behaviour!
And Jeroboam said to his wife, Arise, I pray thee, and DISGUISE thyself, that thou be not known to be the wife of Jeroboam; and get thee to Shiloh: behold, there [is] Ahijah the prophet, which told me that [I should be] king over this people. (IKings 14:2)
Here it means "disguise". So God says: I don't disguise Myself.
And the maiden pleased him, and she obtained kindness of him; and he speedily gave her her things for purification, with such things as belonged to her, and seven maidens, [which were] meet to be given her, out of the king's house: and he PREFERRED her and her maids unto the best [place] of the house of the women. (Esther 2:9)
Here it is translated "preferred".
And Haman said unto king Ahasuerus, There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws [are] DIVERSE from all people; neither keep they the king's laws: therefore it [is] not for the king's profit to suffer them. (Esther 3:8)
Here it means "diverse" or "different". God is saying: my behaviour doesn't become different; it is dependable and reliable.
My covenant will I not break, nor ALTER the thing that is gone out of my lips. (Psalms 89:34)
THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT GOD MEANS IN MALACHI 3:6!
He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that REPEATETH a matter separateth [very] friends. (Proverbs 17:9)
Here "shanah" is rendered "repeats" ... and implied is: repeating a matter and CHANGING some of the details in the story and thereby causing trouble. Again, God does not do this.
God doesn't pervert judgment.
MALACHI 3:6 IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW PHILOSOPHERS WILL DRAW CONCLUSIONS FROM A STATEMENT, WHICH THE ORIGINAL SPEAKER NEVER INTENDED TO BE DRAWN!
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)
It is in this same vein that Hebrews 13: 8 tells us:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)
Christ's dealings with us are dependable ... He doesn't change His behaviour towards us in unpredictable ways.
But Christ has changed! The things He experienced during His 33½ years of living as a mortal human being on this Earth have forever CHANGED the knowledge and understanding He had prior to those experiences.
Though he were a Son, yet LEARNED he obedience by the things which he suffered; (Hebrews 5:8)
To claim that that experience did not make an impact on Christ's knowledge and understanding is ridiculous! This verse here tells us that Christ DID LEARN something!
The expression "before" creation is not meaningless at all! God existed BEFORE creation and God HAD THOUGHTS before creation.
Like "space", TIME is something that has always existed. Time does not "need" to be created. What creation has done, is put both, time and space, in a measurable context from our human perspective. God is NOT SUBJECT TO time or space ... He controls both. Don't let the thoughts of the philosophers, who were cut off from contact with God, fool you with the vain imaginations of their minds.
It is these philosophers that Paul had in mind when he wrote these verses.
That is an insult to Almighty God! With Dr. Stavrinides God almost never means what He says. But what some pagan, foolish philosophers have dreamed up, that is certainly logical and correct; but God ... He doesn't really mean what He says ... He only speaks in figures of speech.
In summary, when we talk about "time", then we see that another one of Dr. Stavrinides' assumed premises is false. So his conclusions are also false.